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Post by Grave on Jul 28, 2007 13:13:12 GMT -5
Another idea: Civil Wars.
This was a feature that I loved in the older Civ games. If you were at war with a Civilization, if you capture their capital, the enemy Civ could split into two Civs.
Example: You're at war with the Romans. Rome is a pretty big empire, compared to yours. You manage to capture their capital, Rome. Suddenly the Roman Empire splits into two Civilizations: The Romans (original civ you're at war with) and the Byzantines (the rebels).
With this feature, you could negotiate an alliance with the rebel Byzantine, and continue your war with Rome. This could force Rome to their knees and ask for a peace treaty, where normally they wouldn't offer.
It's the classic "cut the head off" example. So it's always best to protect your capital!
When the rebels break off, it could be a handful of cities on the cultural borders of the Civ.
Plus, this "Civil War" event wouldn't have to happen everytime you capture a capital. Make it a percent chance, like 5-10%, for example.
Thoughts?
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Post by Gmatt on Jul 28, 2007 16:51:54 GMT -5
Bigger than %10, but dependent on as you mention the power of the Civilizations, yours included. If you are a weak Civ and conquer a very powerful enemies capital the enemies population would be even more grumpy and less likely to resist further, they will just be to bummed out at the government for not defending them and be willing to split.
So maybe we could add in a unity function. Factors would be Civics, (Ie you are Universal Suffrage vs a Police State). (Ie if Hitler conquered London, we would have resisted all the way everywhere). If you can use propaganda and get your people behind you (Kind of a Crusade) then there will be better unity and more chance of resistance. Or if you have a Weak unity, you could split like France when Hitler took Paris.
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Post by Grave on Jul 28, 2007 17:15:05 GMT -5
That's a god idea... new tags in the Civics that can influence the % chance of a Civil War.
Example: Nationhood could remove the possiblity all together.
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Post by Gmatt on Jul 28, 2007 21:00:25 GMT -5
And not just on your own but in how they relate to the conqueror's Civics. If an Emancipations Capital is taken by a Slavery guy, the people are more likely to resist right? Who wants to be slaves. And that desire would not be localized so promoting unity and dropping the chance of a split (at least in my thinking).
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Post by Gmatt on Jul 28, 2007 21:03:28 GMT -5
Hmm, in my 2nd last post I put that Hitler/London bit in the wrong place. Fixed now..
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Post by tunchkhan on Aug 1, 2007 9:05:55 GMT -5
Great ideas so far. I'd love to see the civil war option, maybe %20 of a chance if the capital falls. It's great if we can tie the factors to the culture levels of the invading army.
Also, when the invading armies of a "much higher" culture approach, there could be a chance that those cities under threat join your realm (when a number of enemy units are within the city radius).
Lastly, I miss the old version of revolting cities. If the number of unhappy citizens reach a certain level, the city should fall to the rebels and needs to be liberated. If this is not done in a certain time, they can declare independence and form their own civilizations (ala Civ II). We can easliy have a bunch of alternative civilizations to each civilization and I am willing to work on this, if the programming allows.
The following list is just an example:
Romans -> Byzantines; Etruscans Greeks -> Spartans; Macedonians English -> Scottish; Welsh French -> Burgundians; Huguenots Spanish -> Aragonese; Castillans Ottomans -> Seljuks; Karamans Americans -> Texans; Californians Germans -> Prussians; Austrians Persians -> Azeris; Sassanids Mogols -> Timurids; Crimeans Chinese -> Manchurians; Cantonese Indians -> Moghuls; Pakistanis Egyptians -> Mamluks; Copts
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Post by d**nyankees on Aug 1, 2007 22:39:17 GMT -5
I love this idea. This list is good, but there are a few problems: Romans -> Byzantines; Etruscans Greeks -> Spartans; Macedonians English -> Scottish; Welsh French -> Burgundians; Huguenots Spanish -> Aragonese; Castillans Ottomans -> Seljuks; Karamans Americans -> Texans; Californians Germans -> Prussians; Austrians Persians -> Azeris; Sassanids Mogols -> Timurids; Crimeans Chinese -> Manchurians; Cantonese Indians -> Moghuls; Pakistanis Egyptians -> Mamluks; Copts For the Americans, I think something a little more universal would be better - Union and Confedarcy, for example. Also, the Cantonese aren't really an ethnic group in China, but a language group. For the Chinese, maybe a split between Han and Zhuang, the 2 largest groups. Or you could take Dynasty names: Xia, Sui, Tang, Zhou, Qing, Ming. Lots of options - there needn't be just two, right? We could have a bunch of choices, so when/if a Civ splits, it will split into 2 groups who's names you can't really predict. Also, Rome can't really split into Byzantium, since in BTS that is its own Civ. I think it might be more interesting to think of them as political factions - they could become the Julii, Cornelii, Bruni, Bruti. Just some other ones: Arabia -> Abbassids; Ummayids Native Americans-> Iraqouis; Sioux Japan-> Meiji; Bushido (I know those are concepts, but it seems like a logical split) Russia -> Tatar; Rus Carthage -> Phoenicians; North Africans (if there is a words for that) Celts -> Avernii, Helvetii (there are a ton: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Celtic_tribes)Vikings -> Sweden and Denmark and Norway This sounds incredibly cool.
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Post by shiggs713 on Aug 2, 2007 6:45:02 GMT -5
if you need stuff for the americans, I have tons of stuff on the american civil war already done. It will be released in a few months on CFC, but it will be for this also, so if you need anything ask
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Post by Grave on Aug 2, 2007 7:19:46 GMT -5
Also, Rome can't really split into Byzantium, since in BTS that is its own Civ. I think it might be more interesting to think of them as political factions - they could become the Julii, Cornelii, Bruni, Bruti. Well, I was thinking that, just for simplicity, that the "rebels" spawned from the empire split would be another Civilization. That way you don't have to create a bunch of Civs... they're already in the game, complete with Leaderheads, UU's, city names, etc.
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Post by tunchkhan on Aug 2, 2007 11:19:50 GMT -5
That's also an idea, but I suggest leave that part to others (like us) for the moment and focus on the programming at this stage. If we have an abundance of civilizations, you can decide on who splits into who. Ideally, some of the above suggestions seem more plausible, but of course it will all come to the programming. Can we decide on which civs to appear after a civil war? If so, I can work on a lot of new civs for this mod. All I'll need will be some leaderheads (we can even use the alternative leaderhead of the original civ as most civs come with two leaderheads to start with). And yes, Confederacy is a better suggestion for an American splinter civilization.
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Post by Grave on Aug 2, 2007 12:36:00 GMT -5
If we have an abundance of civilizations, you can decide on who splits into who. Definately. Something that the end user can modify, which will determine when a Civ splits, who the new Civ will be as a result. So that way when the English split, they'll have different sets of Civs as opposed to the Ethiopians, Chinese, etc. And yes, Confederacy is a better suggestion for an American splinter civilization. Well, Texans seem to think they're their own country anyway... might as well make a Texan civlization, too.
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Post by d**nyankees on Aug 2, 2007 14:46:28 GMT -5
Well, I was thinking that, just for simplicity, that the "rebels" spawned from the empire split would be another Civilization. That way you don't have to create a bunch of Civs... they're already in the game, complete with Leaderheads, UU's, city names, etc. The only concern there is there aren't enough. I think it would be easier to just use modified leaderheads to represent new factions, like they do whenever people mod a new civ. Also, if a Civ splits into 2, they would likely name their cities the same thing - they are still essentially the same culture, just a different political entity. So maybe you would just have the new splinters sharing the name list of the original Civ.
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Post by d**nyankees on Aug 2, 2007 14:49:45 GMT -5
Ideally, some of the above suggestions seem more plausible, but of course it will all come to the programming. Can we decide on which civs to appear after a civil war? Pardon my programming ignorance, but can't it be a dice roll? For example, say for each Civ there is a list of 8 possible factions they can split in to. Whenever a civ splits, the game will randomly select 2 of them. Is this not doable? Seems like it would add some fun variation to what might end up being a rather predictive process.
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Post by Grave on Aug 2, 2007 19:30:39 GMT -5
Ideally, some of the above suggestions seem more plausible, but of course it will all come to the programming. Can we decide on which civs to appear after a civil war? Pardon my programming ignorance, but can't it be a dice roll? For example, say for each Civ there is a list of 8 possible factions they can split in to. Whenever a civ splits, the game will randomly select 2 of them. Is this not doable? Seems like it would add some fun variation to what might end up being a rather predictive process. That's the idea I have... except when the empire splits, it won't form two new Civs. One will be the original Civ, the other will be the "rebels". But yes... a list of possible "rebel" Civs for each Civ, and the CPU picks one at random.
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Post by preytor on Aug 16, 2007 15:38:09 GMT -5
Great ideas so far. I'd love to see the civil war option, maybe %20 of a chance if the capital falls. It's great if we can tie the factors to the culture levels of the invading army. Also, when the invading armies of a "much higher" culture approach, there could be a chance that those cities under threat join your realm (when a number of enemy units are within the city radius). Lastly, I miss the old version of revolting cities. If the number of unhappy citizens reach a certain level, the city should fall to the rebels and needs to be liberated. If this is not done in a certain time, they can declare independence and form their own civilizations (ala Civ II). We can easliy have a bunch of alternative civilizations to each civilization and I am willing to work on this, if the programming allows. The following list is just an example: Romans -> Byzantines; Etruscans Greeks -> Spartans; Macedonians English -> Scottish; Welsh French -> Burgundians; Huguenots Spanish -> Aragonese; Castillans Ottomans -> Seljuks; Karamans Americans -> Texans; Californians Germans -> Prussians; Austrians Persians -> Azeris; Sassanids Mogols -> Timurids; Crimeans Chinese -> Manchurians; Cantonese Indians -> Moghuls; Pakistanis Egyptians -> Mamluks; Copts For the Greeks I suggest adding the Athenians too. Spartans and Macedonians is perfect ofcourse, but as a third faction Athens would be great too. Sparta and Athens rarely ever got along. If you were to take Athens, you'd have a few places still loyal. Sparta would rise up further right away, and then there are those Macedonians.
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